West Texas - When will we see them come back to dominance? 2015 Districts 2/3 6A

[mojotrain]

Good thing for everyone else that triple jumps don't get you any points in football.

Oh! I thought the subject was track.

[mojotrain]

I define it as someone that has a skill set for whatever field they enter in and their skill set is higher than their fellow peers. In the case of football and physical talent, kids that can catch anything, jump higher, accelerate right off the snap, throw bullets, naturally bigger, have fantastic hand-eye coordination, balance, and natural strength. Just on numbers alone, the Metroplex has many more of those kids than we do. It's not spread out evenly in DFW either. Adding on top of that, in many of the affluent schools, they have camps, resources, and coaching to get the most out of the player. The better programs in DFW can utilize that natural talent and hone their skills to maximize their abilities.

It's what we face right now in the Panhandle/South Plains. Don't get it twisted and say that we're gonna just lay down and die. We'll battle any team we face (look at Monterey facing the juggernaut Southlake Carroll in 2003--game was a close 38-31 contest) but it is the main reason we haven't been able to defeat a DFW team in Round 3 for quite awhile. The teams we have faced in Round 3 have been simply better overall.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you are saying. So maybe you can tell us why a city the size of Lubbock can't at least reach the 4th round. I mean if talent galore is just dropping out of large city birth canals it seems that Lubbock could do it.

[Shady12]

Yes he was a good kid I was very impressed with him! From our end glad he is gone! LOL! And I think it anyone will be hard pressed to say Hucks wasnt a nightmare to defend! I agree on the hand timed 40yds vs electronic..............however there are alot of 4.5 guys in shorts that run 4.9's in pads. The key here I think will be this kid runs good in pads. If I knew how could put a play from the spring where he is pulling away from our guys and they aren't slow by any stretch.

There is no way to word this next question/observation without it sounding like a dig and I hope you will understand it is not intended that way but is something that does not make since?

1. Do you think the transition from the lower classification of MF to 6A will make a difference in your QB production? Lets face it, he has not seen DB's like our district will show him across the board in speed, size or ability. There will be better competition than what was seen in the highlights. He probably has faced 1 or 2 a game from that level but never 4 or 5 like he will see here?

2. 7 on 7 is meaningless from the Running game effect on the passing game (playaction, run/pass option etc.) But why did your QB and those big receivers not have more success in the 7 on 7 stuff this summer. I apologize if this question causes defensiveness it really is a confusing stat with the talent that is there! I think I am not the only one who expected SAC to do better.

1. It will be an adjustment but I doubt it affects production. He's obviously legit. He also has two years of starting varsity experience, even if at the 5A level. Two more years experience than Abilene and Permian's qb's.

2. Heard after that they don't approach the 7 on 7's the same as other teams and the goal isn't necessarily to win. It's treated more like practice and they play guys other team's wouldn't, and put players in situations other's wouldn't.

[Warbird_Dad]

I'm pretty sure I understand what you are saying. So maybe you can tell us why a city the size of Lubbock can't at least reach the 4th round. I mean if talent galore is just dropping out of large city birth canals it seems that Lubbock could do it.

Or even 3rd round....??

[mojotrain]

Or even 3rd round....??

Thanks, I wasn't sure.

[RocklandDragon]

I'm pretty sure I understand what you are saying. So maybe you can tell us why a city the size of Lubbock can't at least reach the 4th round. I mean if talent galore is just dropping out of large city birth canals it seems that Lubbock could do it.

Lubbock isn't even that big (aren't you the one that said Midland/Odessa now has more people than us and y'all are spread between four public high schools). We have 230,000 people and it's spread over six public high schools. Our size of schools isn't even close to the big schools of DFW and Houston. Hell, our schools aren't even as big as San Angelo Central and it's not even close. Our biggest school in LISD is Lubbock Coronado at 2120. Wolfforth Frenship is at 2178 and growing much faster. Lubbock-Cooper is the one to watch for as they could get into 6A by 2020 or 2022 at the latest. The people that move into Lubbock settle in these two districts and more talent is finding its way to Lubbock-Cooper and Frenship. Lubbock ISD isn't even getting the growth of the city whereas Wolfforth Frenship and Lubbock-Cooper are getting the growth. That's why Frenship and Lubbock-Cooper have better chances of getting past the third round. Frenship has done so in 4A and have been to the State Semifinals in 2005 and 2006. Had some great runs until they meet Wichita Falls Rider--Rider has Frenship's number in football and baseball it seems. Frenship has a better focus on football than Lubbock ISD schools and if they continue their growth and approach around 2,500 students, they could build something like San Angelo Central and be a constant 3rd round team and finally break the MetroHex. .

The last time a Lubbock ISD school reached the 3rd round was in 2012 when Monterey was 4A (lost to NRH Birdville 42-21). Hell, that year Amarillo High lost a good game to eventual State Champion Denton Guyer 38-30 in the 3rd round. Now, Estacado used to be a mainstay in the 4A playoffs but when their numbers started declining, so did their football fortunes. It's been a long time since Estacado made the Regional Finals. We haven't been able to make the playoffs while we were paired up with the LSWC and now since we play the LSWC in Round 2, it's going to be tougher. The only school smaller than our schools is Abilene High.

There are other schools in 6A such as Abilene High, Cedar Hill, Lake Travis, etc. that have similar numbers but Abilene High is the only one that is not surrounded by a large city or adjacent to one. Honestly, I don't know how Abilene High was able to break their 40 year playoff drought and be such a force statewide but it does give me hope that Lubbock High can do that one day.

As I stated before, a huge hurdle to overcome is that Lubbock is a baseball town. Has been for decades and high school football isn't as big a deal as other cities such as Odessa, Midland, or Amarillo. I didn't want to think that but the surroundings of baseball year round here and the participation of baseball leagues tells me otherwise. We have plenty of kids that only play baseball, which I think is ridiculous. The kids need to play in multiple sports but that's what they do.

Lubbock ISD is taking football more seriously than it did in the 80s, 90s and more so late in the 2000s--it saw the declining enrollment and participation declines in football throughout the district. Families were happily moving to Frenship and Cooper--likely not just athletic issues but athletes were being lost. It took us a long time to renovate Lowery Field and update our high school athletic fields for football. Even more so, we are still trying to get better coordination between the middle schools and high schools to harness talent and keep it within the LISD boundaries. This was neglected for years--sure they say they did it but when I was in junior high (wasn't middle school back then), I don't remember any Lubbock High coaches visiting us about playing for Lubbock High, keeping in the system, and working with camps. It didn't happen and if it did the message wasn't relayed to us like it is now. That's working against us but now I think it's being addressed and should no longer be an issue.

[mojotrain]

Lubbock isn't even that big (aren't you the one that said Midland/Odessa now has more people than us and y'all are spread between four public high schools). We have 230,000 people and it's spread over six public high schools. Our size of schools isn't even close to the big schools of DFW and Houston. Hell, our schools aren't even as big as San Angelo Central and it's not even close. Our biggest school in LISD is Lubbock Coronado at 2120. Wolfforth Frenship is at 2178 and growing much faster. Lubbock-Cooper is the one to watch for as they could get into 6A by 2020 or 2022 at the latest. The people that move into Lubbock settle in these two districts and more talent is finding its way to Lubbock-Cooper and Frenship. Lubbock ISD isn't even getting the growth of the city whereas Wolfforth Frenship and Lubbock-Cooper are getting the growth. That's why Frenship and Lubbock-Cooper have better chances of getting past the third round. Frenship has done so in 4A and have been to the State Semifinals in 2005 and 2006. Had some great runs until they meet Wichita Falls Rider--Rider has Frenship's number in football and baseball it seems. Frenship has a better focus on football than Lubbock ISD schools and if they continue their growth and approach around 2,500 students, they could build something like San Angelo Central and be a constant 3rd round team and finally break the MetroHex. .

The last time a Lubbock ISD school reached the 3rd round was in 2012 when Monterey was 4A (lost to NRH Birdville 42-21). Hell, that year Amarillo High lost a good game to eventual State Champion Denton Guyer 38-30 in the 3rd round. Now, Estacado used to be a mainstay in the 4A playoffs but when their numbers started declining, so did their football fortunes. It's been a long time since Estacado made the Regional Finals. We haven't been able to make the playoffs while we were paired up with the LSWC and now since we play the LSWC in Round 2, it's going to be tougher. The only school smaller than our schools is Abilene High.

There are other schools in 6A such as Abilene High, Cedar Hill, Lake Travis, etc. that have similar numbers but Abilene High is the only one that is not surrounded by a large city or adjacent to one. Honestly, I don't know how Abilene High was able to break their 40 year playoff drought and be such a force statewide but it does give me hope that Lubbock High can do that one day.

As I stated before, a huge hurdle to overcome is that Lubbock is a baseball town. Has been for decades and high school football isn't as big a deal as other cities such as Odessa, Midland, or Amarillo. I didn't want to think that but the surroundings of baseball year round here and the participation of baseball leagues tells me otherwise. We have plenty of kids that only play baseball, which I think is ridiculous. The kids need to play in multiple sports but that's what they do.

Lubbock ISD is taking football more seriously than it did in the 80s, 90s and more so late in the 2000s--it saw the declining enrollment and participation declines in football throughout the district. Families were happily moving to Frenship and Cooper--likely not just athletic issues but athletes were being lost. It took us a long time to renovate Lowery Field and update our high school athletic fields for football. Even more so, we are still trying to get better coordination between the middle schools and high schools to harness talent and keep it within the LISD boundaries. This was neglected for years--sure they say they did it but when I was in junior high (wasn't middle school back then), I don't remember any Lubbock High coaches visiting us about playing for Lubbock High, keeping in the system, and working with camps. It didn't happen and if it did the message wasn't relayed to us like it is now. That's working against us but now I think it's being addressed and should no longer be an issue.

Lubbock was always double the size of Odessa or Midland and even today Lubbock is larger than Odessa or Midland and it has always been bigger than San Angelo too. So you use the wrong figures in the comparison. Big just doesn't get it.

Putting all Recruiting and open borders aside for this discussion. Because those two things mask both your thoughts and mine as well as the value of a state crown. I'll tell what I think the difference in what you believe and what I believe. I don't think there is much difference in picking a team from 1000 boys in a high school and picking a team from 1500 boys in a high school. Permian has taken hits in the last over the last 15 years from smaller schools more often than not. I know what the failure of Permian has been. It's been from a lack of coaching and coaching continuity, period. Permian's kids have always been here. Did Abilene's fortunes rise because of a suddenly appearing talent pool. Did San Angelo's fortunes rise because of a suddenly appearing talent pool? No! They got better because of new coach's.

You remember that Lubbock High took on one of Permian's X coach's and kept him around for years. Putting it bluntly Lubbock was willing to give mediocrity a long term try out. Why would you think born talent is abundant in Lubbock for baseball but not football? I think by design, Lubbock gives more attention more importance to the hiring of a baseball coach than a football coach. Lubbock has the kids. Why won't Lubbock kids play football? Go no further than the won/ lost records. No kid wants to be a tackling dummy for a old time Permian team.

Talent, as you call it, is in every school. It's the same on I-20 as it is on I-35. Teams with good programs and coach's will develop what you perceive as talent. Schools without programs and good coach's won't bring out the kids and those that do show up will work long and hard on the wrong things and lose.

I think you and others take the side of a losing coach when he is trying to excuse a losing career with "we just didn't have enough talent".

[RocklandDragon]

Lubbock was always double the size of Odessa or Midland and even today Lubbock is larger than Odessa or Midland and it has always been bigger than San Angelo too. So you use the wrong figures in the comparison. Big just doesn't get it.

Putting all Recruiting and open borders aside for this discussion. Because those two things mask both your thoughts and mine as well as the value of a state crown. I'll tell what I think the difference in what you believe and what I believe. I don't think there is much difference in picking a team from 1000 boys in a high school and picking a team from 1500 boys in a high school. Permian has taken hits in the last over the last 15 years from smaller schools more often than not. I know what the failure of Permian has been. It's been from a lack of coaching and coaching continuity, period. Permian's kids have always been here. Did Abilene's fortunes rise because of a suddenly appearing talent pool. Did San Angelo's fortunes rise because of a suddenly appearing talent pool? No! They got better because of new coach's.

You remember that Lubbock High took on one of Permian's X coach's and kept him around for years. Putting it bluntly Lubbock was willing to give mediocrity a long term try out. Why would you think born talent is abundant in Lubbock for baseball but not football? I think by design, Lubbock gives more attention more importance to the hiring of a baseball coach than a football coach. Lubbock has the kids. Why won't Lubbock kids play football? Go no further than the won/ lost records. No kid wants to be a tackling dummy for a old time Permian team.

Talent, as you call it, is in every school. It's the same on I-20 as it is on I-35. Teams with good programs and coach's will develop what you perceive as talent. Schools without programs and good coach's won't bring out the kids and those that do show up will work long and hard on the wrong things and lose.

I think you and others take the side of a losing coach when he is trying to excuse a losing career with "we just didn't have enough talent".

I'm not using the wrong numbers. Midland/Odessa together has more people than Lubbock. That's what I was saying and it was due to the recent petro boom that occurred. San Angelo isn't bigger than Lubbock but their biggest school is larger than ours by a good margin. People will--or they should tell you San Angelo has always had players--even on their bad squads and they always outsized us when we played them in any year. Always. I can't tell you why San Angelo was so bad in the late 2000s but it's good to see that Central is having a resurgence. Yet, they are still trying to figure out how to get out of Round 3.

That's the original question right? When will West Texas get back to dominance? Not if we could have a winning program. We have winning programs here in my side of the state and West Texas (Lubbock Monterey, Lubbock-Cooper, Wollforth Frenship, Amarillo High) but can they get past Round 3? Only Abilene High can say that in the largest classification right now.

Watched Lubbock High play against North Mesquite twice--both games were blowouts and the first one was an annihilation. North Mesquite isn't the best coached team but they had talent galore and it showed up in the trenches, corners, skill positions--everywhere! Talent won that day and many times it wins many games.

You can't put recruiting and open borders aside because it is also gives big city schools an advantage. A family can move to a particular school that has a solid football program and not have to change jobs or even adjust to very different surroundings. At this juncture, we will not be gathering the talent that teams such as The Woodlands, Spring Westfield, Manvel, Cibolo Steele, DeSoto, Allen, Arlington Martin and other big city schools gather. Even if we had the best coaches, we simply do not have the talent pool to match up with these teams. I think Frenship has great coaching but even they haven't defeated a Metroplex school since 2008. We can have the best coaching but it's going to take a while to get talented players through the system and hope they stay in the system so they can bring more depth and skill to our LISD football programs.

It's true. Coaching does make a difference. A huge one. The mediocre coach you speak of wasn't bad for our program. In fact, I'm glad he was here because we needed someone that could relate with success at Permian (he did have some--he did go to the state finals with y'all in 1995 and with Speck y'all went to the State Semis in 94,and Quarterfinals in 98. It wasn't all bad with Randy Mayes and Mike Speck being there). He did get the kids to play a lot harder under his watch than the previous coach. If Coach Speck was there during the late 90s and early 2000s with Lubbock High, we would have made the playoffs. We had talent on those teams--not the best in the city, but enough to win critical games. The previous coaching staff before Coach Speck wasted a big chance to get Lubbock High back to contention in football. Coach Speck and Lubbock High were able to beat San Angelo Central a couple of times and even defeated Midland Lee (still glad I watched that one)--and Midland Lee made the playoffs that year. I think Speck was a good man and a decent coach that got us some big wins (he was there the last time we won the Spurs vs. Monterey) but he couldn't get us in the playoffs. Depth though has been Lubbock High's achilles heel and we can't just replace kids with other ones like the Metroplex schools sometimes can.

The last sentence you wrote is simply wrong. We don't cover for a losing coach. Coach Speck couldn't get us to the playoffs so he had to resign. Coach Butch Henderson of Coronado couldn't get it done at the end and he got fired. He went undefeated against the LSWC and went to Round 3 in 2007 but was fired 3 years later. We want results but don't tell me that we can just compete with the Metroplex and get state titles right away if every LISD school had Vince Lombardi. It's not realistic, period. It took a while for Permian to get back on solid footing and get better numbers for their football program and even they haven't beaten a Metroplex school in Round 3 since 1998 right? Did Euless Trinity simply out-coach Permian? No. Coach Lineweaver is a fantastic coach and he loves to be a gambling man on the field but he isn't going to run the same offense or have the same success at Lubbock High or Estacado. Trinity has players that coaches drool over and new Coach Jensen is going to take advantage of that. That's just a fact. Same with DeSoto and same with Arlington Martin. Amarillo High has a well coached program and they get great players to play for their team but they don't have as many as some of the DFW powerhouses.

What I'm telling you that talent is a good advantage that DFW and Houston have. Resources (money) are a factor too and some top DFW programs have both. Even the San Antonio schools near the AFB and in North Bexar have talent that Lubbock schools wishes we could get. It's not impossible to overcome, though. Abilene High shows it can be done and we can do that too. We can but it will take some time to get that going. That why I keep saying--over and over again--that Wollforth Frenship and Lubbock-Cooper are going to be the ones that have the best chance to break the MetroHex for our county. The talent in Lubbock ISD is too spread out right now (or leaving the ISD to go to Frenship and L-C) for us to realistically expect us to be state contenders in the largest classification. We're working on it and would love to see Lubbock ISD compete in state in football.

Also, keep in mind it is still easier to get key players for baseball than it is for football. In football, you have to cover a lot of positions and there are so many more players needed on the field (and they ain't playing both ways too much in 6A, I'm certain). 22 is more than 9 and our baseball success has been primarily for defense and pitching. We actually have a talent gap in baseball too. It's not as big because we do focus more on baseball but it is there. We overcome the gap with key defense and pitching. Our pitchers can be on par with the state, I believe but I think we have a gap when it comes to the sticks. Some of these schools have huge baseball players with ridiculous bat speed and coordination but they can be shutdown with a pitcher that can locate and deceive batters with a good pitch selection. The talent gap is erased and we need to find a way to close the talent gap we have in football like Abilene High did (once again, refer to the Cedar Hill/Abilene High game).

[mojotrain]

I'm not using the wrong numbers. Midland/Odessa together has more people than Lubbock. That's what I was saying and it was due to the recent petro boom that occurred. San Angelo isn't bigger than Lubbock but their biggest school is larger than ours by a good margin. People will--or they should tell you San Angelo has always had players--even on their bad squads and they always outsized us when we played them in any year. Always. I can't tell you why San Angelo was so bad in the late 2000s but it's good to see that Central is having a resurgence. Yet, they are still trying to figure out how to get out of Round 3.

That's the original question right? When will West Texas get back to dominance? Not if we could have a winning program. We have winning programs here in my side of the state and West Texas (Lubbock Monterey, Lubbock-Cooper, Wollforth Frenship, Amarillo High) but can they get past Round 3? Only Abilene High can say that in the largest classification right now.

Watched Lubbock High play against North Mesquite twice--both games were blowouts and the first one was an annihilation. North Mesquite isn't the best coached team but they had talent galore and it showed up in the trenches, corners, skill positions--everywhere! Talent won that day and many times it wins many games.

You can't put recruiting and open borders aside because it is also gives big city schools an advantage. A family can move to a particular school that has a solid football program and not have to change jobs or even adjust to very different surroundings. At this juncture, we will not be gathering the talent that teams such as The Woodlands, Spring Westfield, Manvel, Cibolo Steele, DeSoto, Allen, Arlington Martin and other big city schools gather. Even if we had the best coaches, we simply do not have the talent pool to match up with these teams. I think Frenship has great coaching but even they haven't defeated a Metroplex school since 2008. We can have the best coaching but it's going to take a while to get talented players through the system and hope they stay in the system so they can bring more depth and skill to our LISD football programs.

It's true. Coaching does make a difference. A huge one. The mediocre coach you speak of wasn't bad for our program. In fact, I'm glad he was here because we needed someone that could relate with success at Permian (he did have some--he did go to the state finals with y'all in 1995 and with Speck y'all went to the State Semis in 94,and Quarterfinals in 98. It wasn't all bad with Randy Mayes and Mike Speck being there). He did get the kids to play a lot harder under his watch than the previous coach. If Coach Speck was there during the late 90s and early 2000s with Lubbock High, we would have made the playoffs. We had talent on those teams--not the best in the city, but enough to win critical games. The previous coaching staff before Coach Speck wasted a big chance to get Lubbock High back to contention in football. Coach Speck and Lubbock High were able to beat San Angelo Central a couple of times and even defeated Midland Lee (still glad I watched that one)--and Midland Lee made the playoffs that year. I think Speck was a good man and a decent coach that got us some big wins (he was there the last time we won the Spurs vs. Monterey) but he couldn't get us in the playoffs. Depth though has been Lubbock High's achilles heel and we can't just replace kids with other ones like the Metroplex schools sometimes can.

The last sentence you wrote is simply wrong. We don't cover for a losing coach. Coach Speck couldn't get us to the playoffs so he had to resign. Coach Butch Henderson of Coronado couldn't get it done at the end and he got fired. He went undefeated against the LSWC and went to Round 3 in 2007 but was fired 3 years later. We want results but don't tell me that we can just compete with the Metroplex and get state titles right away if every LISD school had Vince Lombardi. It's not realistic, period. It took a while for Permian to get back on solid footing and get better numbers for their football program and even they haven't beaten a Metroplex school in Round 3 since 1998 right? Did Euless Trinity simply out-coach Permian? No. Coach Lineweaver is a fantastic coach and he loves to be a gambling man on the field but he isn't going to run the same offense or have the same success at Lubbock High or Estacado. Trinity has players that coaches drool over and new Coach Jensen is going to take advantage of that. That's just a fact. Same with DeSoto and same with Arlington Martin. Amarillo High has a well coached program and they get great players to play for their team but they don't have as many as some of the DFW powerhouses.

What I'm telling you that talent is a good advantage that DFW and Houston have. Resources (money) are a factor too and some top DFW programs have both. Even the San Antonio schools near the AFB and in North Bexar have talent that Lubbock schools wishes we could get. It's not impossible to overcome, though. Abilene High shows it can be done and we can do that too. We can but it will take some time to get that going. That why I keep saying--over and over again--that Wollforth Frenship and Lubbock-Cooper are going to be the ones that have the best chance to break the MetroHex for our county. The talent in Lubbock ISD is too spread out right now (or leaving the ISD to go to Frenship and L-C) for us to realistically expect us to be state contenders in the largest classification. We're working on it and would love to see Lubbock ISD compete in state in football.

Also, keep in mind it is still easier to get key players for baseball than it is for football. In football, you have to cover a lot of positions and there are so many more players needed on the field (and they ain't playing both ways too much in 6A, I'm certain). 22 is more than 9 and our baseball success has been primarily for defense and pitching. We actually have a talent gap in baseball too. It's not as big because we do focus more on baseball but it is there. We overcome the gap with key defense and pitching. Our pitchers can be on par with the state, I believe but I think we have a gap when it comes to the sticks. Some of these schools have huge baseball players with ridiculous bat speed and coordination but they can be shutdown with a pitcher that can locate and deceive batters with a good pitch selection. The talent gap is erased and we need to find a way to close the talent gap we have in football like Abilene High did (once again, refer to the Cedar Hill/Abilene High game).

The Odessa Midland population together has nothing to do with this. The two city's combined totals to entice corporations to move into the area. A C of C ploy.

Too many different theory's for me. Simply put, You give football success to a superior gene pool that runs in big city's specifically up and down I-35 corridor. My theory stands with kid's that coach's turn into talent that wins championships.

Maye's and Speck lived off of a 5 year deep program of talent built by Hollingshead and Gaines before him. They didn't rebuild and by the time they left, what they started with was gone. Like spending money without replacing it, your going to run out. The only thing Lubbock got from Speck was a good guy who had seen Permian play a bunch of games with talent that the program had developed, then slowly become diluted down to a team that couldn't play tackle football. You could have done as well hiring me. Allman proved in 3-4 years what could be done on the Permian end of I-20 with good coaching. Gaines II proved what could be done on Permian's end of I-20 with poor coaching now it's Felds job to re- build talent again.

If you continue to use recruiting and open borders as a commendable tool for building championships then you should consider saving praise for those who buy. Then your theory will make perfect sense. The stores are more plentiful on the I-35 corridor. But as a individual piece not necessarily a better product.

[SLC13]

Train and RD - Great discussion with some really good points, I think you're both onto something.

RD, you are correct in saying DFW has more talent. Just by it's very size the DFW metroplex will produce more top tier kids in a given year than either Lubbock or Odessa/Midland. Those kids are generally identified very early and tend to gravitate to the schools/programs that are most successful in football.

Train, you are correct in saying that great coaching makes a huge difference. Well the most successful DFW teams all tend to have great coaching staffs.

The problem for you guys and all of West TX is that by the 3rd round of the PO's the schools that are typically left to match up with are the ones with the combination of great talent and great coaching. Yes, you might catch a western DFW team in the 1st round and when that happens you have an even game and good chance for victory, ie. OP vs. Arl. Sam Houston. However by the 3rd round you are matching up with the Trinity's, Martin's, or Allen's in D1 and the Cedar Hill's, Guyer's or SLC's in D2. All talented teams with great coaching staffs.

While beating a well coached, talented team is a difficult task, no HS team is unbeatable. To accomplish that requires that your team is prepared for those battles by having played challenging teams that give them a flavor of the difficulty and speed of the games they will see in the 3rd round of the PO's. I have always thought that AHS under Coach Warren had the right formula. Each year they always scheduled one or two DFW teams in pre-district to give their kids that experience.

MOP, I firmly believe that is one of the main reasons that AHS was able to break through in 2009 and go all the way. I believe the rest of WT would do well to follow that example to give yourselves the best chance in round 3.

That's enough soapbox from the dark side, sorry for the interruption. Carry on with your discussion.

[mojotrain]

Train and RD - Great discussion with some really good points, I think you're both onto something.

RD, you are correct in saying DFW has more talent. Just by it's very size the DFW metroplex will produce more top tier kids in a given year than either Lubbock or Odessa/Midland. Those kids are generally identified very early and tend to gravitate to the schools/programs that are most successful in football.

Train, you are correct in saying that great coaching makes a huge difference. Well the most successful DFW teams all tend to have great coaching staffs.

The problem for you guys and all of West TX is that by the 3rd round of the PO's the schools that are typically left to match up with are the ones with the combination of great talent and great coaching. Yes, you might catch a western DFW team in the 1st round and when that happens you have an even game and good chance for victory, ie. OP vs. Arl. Sam Houston. However by the 3rd round you are matching up with the Trinity's, Martin's, or Allen's in D1 and the Cedar Hill's, Guyer's or SLC's in D2. All talented teams with great coaching staffs.

While beating a well coached, talented team is a difficult task, no HS team is unbeatable. To accomplish that requires that your team is prepared for those battles by having played challenging teams that give them a flavor of the difficulty and speed of the games they will see in the 3rd round of the PO's. I have always thought that AHS under Coach Warren had the right formula. Each year they always scheduled one or two DFW teams in pre-district to give their kids that experience.

MOP, I firmly believe that is one of the main reasons that AHS was able to break through in 2009 and go all the way. I believe the rest of WT would do well to follow that example to give yourselves the best chance in round 3.

That's enough soapbox from the dark side, sorry for the interruption. Carry on with your discussion.

Permian made a 35 year reputation out of gutting those teams with what was deemed as superior talent. The first 15 years they shocked the state by winning with what was perceived as lesser talent. The next 20 years they were expected and picked to win in most games because they played perfectly as a team. Something we now know that was actually taking place in those first 15 years but people just didn't understand at the time that well coach average, was better than ill coached super players. We were never picked because we had better talent. We never sent the big numbers to D-1 university's we sent kids to D-3 and junior colleges. That fact alone irked supporters of "talent wins championships". Those are things that you and Rock can look up. No supposition to it.

Every 6A school in the state has loads of fat boys who have average to good height. Getting them to come out and practice perfectly has nothing to do with talent but has everything to do with coaching.

I can see a top tier team a team with a program trying to put another good team on their pre-season schedule. Playing someone better or as good will improve you. Or as you guys like to say, "see where you are at". But if a El Paso team or a 5-A team can beat you, you would be classed as a dunce to NOT know where you are at. If a El Paso team can beat you then putting a E T on the schedule is idiotic. When we play perfect, when we beat the average joe's, then we look for better game. I won't even try again, for the humpteenth time to let you know the teams that Permian had on their pre-season schedules during those 35 years. You either don't listen, you don't believe what I saw or you are liberals. Anyhow those pre-season teams are also documented with the scores and facts. Read those records and then tell me what West Texas, specifically Permian can't do.

[SLC13]

Permian made a 35 year reputation out of gutting those teams with what was deemed as superior talent. The first 15 years they shocked the state by winning with what was perceived as lesser talent. The next 20 years they were expected and picked to win in most games because they played perfectly as a team. Something we now know that was actually taking place in those first 15 years but people just didn't understand at the time that well coach average, was better than ill coached super players. This is still true, but you're missing my point..

We were never picked because we had better talent. We never sent the big numbers to D-1 university's we sent kids to D-3 and junior colleges. That fact alone irked supporters of "talent wins championships". Despite your cheap shot below I do listen to your discussion of MOJO history because SLC's has to a great extent followed a similar formula in building our success. Those are things that you and Rock can look up. No supposition to it.

Every 6A school in the state has loads of fat boys who have average to good height. Getting them to come out and practice perfectly has nothing to do with talent but has everything to do with coaching.

I can see a top tier team a team with a program trying to put another good team on their pre-season schedule. Playing someone better or as good will improve you. Or as you guys like to say, "see where you are at". But if a El Paso team or a 5-A team can beat you, you would be classed as a dunce to NOT know where you are at. If a El Paso team can beat you then putting a E T on the schedule is idiotic. When we play perfect, when we beat the average joe's, then we look for better game. I won't even try again, for the humpteenth time to let you know the teams that Permian had on their pre-season schedules during those 35 years. You either don't listen, you don't believe what I saw or you are liberals. That was a bit of a cheap shot there Train, I expected better. I'll take "D - none of the above" for $500 and you can save the liberal moniker for someone like SLCDF.

Anyhow those pre-season teams are also documented with the scores and facts. Read those records and then tell me what West Texas, specifically Permian can't do.

I think you missed some of my point so I will try it again. It's not 1980 anymore, the HS game has changed and evolved especially in the last 15 years. The teams that reach the 3rd round in region 1 are no longer talented but "ill coached" teams. Almost all have really good/great coaching AND lots of talent. "Well coached average" doesn't beat "well coached talented" very often any more. The proof is pretty obvious, since the end of the Midland Lee run I believe only two West TX teams have made it past the 3rd round. Midland once in 2002 and Abilene twice (my apologies if I missed team). More specifically Permian has been to the 3rd round and come away empty 4 times in that span, and 3 of those games were not even close. As you told me, "you can look it up, no supposition to it".

My suggestion that maybe West TX teams should mimic Abilene and schedule a game or two in pre-district with DFW teams to get prepared better for when the PO's arrive is strictly my opinion based on what I've observed over the last 10-15 years. I do appreciate that any suggestion of copying AHS is probably kryptonite as far as OP fans are concerned. I also do appreciate your point that scheduling a team like ET before you are ready is silly (see I do listen), but I wasn't suggesting that you necessarily schedule the DFW powerhouses. What's the matter with scheduling teams like Duncanville, Mansfield, Hebron, or Marcus. Certainly a pre-district game or two against some of those teams would help your kids improve more than a game with EP or RGV teams.

I think I've aired my suggestion in a couple posts, so I'll depart this conversation and leave your 3rd round dilemma to better minds than I. Perhaps when we finally get together over that cold one we can continue the MOJO history lesson (which I do enjoy hearing about)..

[Warbird_Dad]

Train and RD - Great discussion with some really good points, I think you're both onto something.

RD, you are correct in saying DFW has more talent. Just by it's very size the DFW metroplex will produce more top tier kids in a given year than either Lubbock or Odessa/Midland. Those kids are generally identified very early and tend to gravitate to the schools/programs that are most successful in football.

Train, you are correct in saying that great coaching makes a huge difference. Well the most successful DFW teams all tend to have great coaching staffs.

The problem for you guys and all of West TX is that by the 3rd round of the PO's the schools that are typically left to match up with are the ones with the combination of great talent and great coaching. Yes, you might catch a western DFW team in the 1st round and when that happens you have an even game and good chance for victory, ie. OP vs. Arl. Sam Houston. However by the 3rd round you are matching up with the Trinity's, Martin's, or Allen's in D1 and the Cedar Hill's, Guyer's or SLC's in D2. All talented teams with great coaching staffs.

While beating a well coached, talented team is a difficult task, no HS team is unbeatable. To accomplish that requires that your team is prepared for those battles by having played challenging teams that give them a flavor of the difficulty and speed of the games they will see in the 3rd round of the PO's. I have always thought that AHS under Coach Warren had the right formula. Each year they always scheduled one or two DFW teams in pre-district to give their kids that experience.

MOP, I firmly believe that is one of the main reasons that AHS was able to break through in 2009 and go all the way. I believe the rest of WT would do well to follow that example to give yourselves the best chance in round 3.

That's enough soapbox from the dark side, sorry for the interruption. Carry on with your discussion.

That's it exactly SLC13...!! Whether it be D1 or D2 the key is getting past week 3. If WT teams can do that then they have a VERY good chance of getting to the finals....IMO.

[mojotrain]

13 not every thing I posted was directed towards you. Specifically the liberal point I made. But you had joined the exchange between Rockland and I and as I said, I was trying to draw him into giving me a definite description of what he describes as talent. The Rockland isn't the first or the last who has a opinion on what talent is but he's among many that won't come out and define it. The "liberal" remark I used came out of his thoughts of a past Lubbock High coach who was hired to win football games and failed to do so. So 50 % or there bout's is an acceptable result, a standard. Yet talent to win baseball but no talent to win football?..



I look at it as though the average of the next thousand kids born in Odessa Texas have the same capabilities as the next thousand kids that are born in any one city or attendance zone on I-35. Now if you and the Rock don't agree on that then you flat out insist that children with superior athletic genes (what I assume you and rock call talent) are born on the I-35 corridor.

I say and forever will say, that a tall fat kid born and raised in Odessa Texas will still be just a tall fat kid in Odessa Texas when he leaves Permian 18 years later. UNLESS he is given direction to excel in something and the better direction he is given the better he will be.

I say that a tall fat kid born and raised in in D/FW and raised in D/FW will still be a tall fat kid in D/FW when he leaves any school 18 years later. UNLESS he is given direction to excel in something and the better direction he is given the better he will be.

My links/sources on this are visual and living with it. 49 years of Permian High School football. That includes the 80's as you pointed out 13, that time period we no longer live in. I'll tell you exactly how it was in the 60's through 2014, not so long ago. Permian football fortunes rose and fell directly in relation to changes in football coach's. That's all. Allman solved this district in the short time he was here and SLC didn't beat Permian in the playoffs because they were blessed at birth with having better gene talent. SLC won because they had, had a better coach, LONGER than Permian had.

I'm telling you and you can take it for what it's worth. Feldt is building his own talent out of Odessa born and raised kids of all races. West Texas football fields are the same size as those any where in the state. Permian facilities are equal or better than most in the state. Our kids eat and dump the same way as those you think are blessed special genes from birth. And by the way, concerning genes, neither of you have a patent any greater than mine in predicting the future.

As sure as you are sure that the west can't ever again, I'm equally sure that we will. If left alone, un- bridled by ECISD he will wade through D/FW sooner than either of you hope. Fellows that's about as plain as I can make it.

[mojotrain]

That's it exactly SLC13...!! Whether it be D1 or D2 the key is getting past week 3. If WT teams can do that then they have a VERY good chance of getting to the finals....IMO.

This! And this will happen.

[Eagledad]

1. It will be an adjustment but I doubt it affects production. He's obviously legit. He also has two years of starting varsity experience, even if at the 5A level. Two more years experience than Abilene and Permian's qb's.

2. Heard after that they don't approach the 7 on 7's the same as other teams and the goal isn't necessarily to win. It's treated more like practice and they play guys other team's wouldn't, and put players in situations other's wouldn't.

Great point on the experience, which is just a fact of the situation. If I sounded like I did not think he was legit please accept my apology as that is not the case. I was incorrect with my thought they were at the 4A level, so at the 5A the drop off will not be as much and depending on competition faced is the same.

Abilene does not approach the 7 on 7 game to win either as we run our standard base passing plays you will see in the fall and play alot of players. This year was the first in a while that we played basically 1 qb the whole summer, but that was to give him the best opportunity to learn for the upcoming fall. Some schools run 7 on 7 plays that don't even exist in their playbook as an attempt to win 7 on 7. Just seems with that much talent on the field I would have expected more.

I think we agree 7 on 7 victories do not equate to victories in the fall! It just works on 1 aspect of the game!

[Eagledad]

Lubbock was always double the size of Odessa or Midland and even today Lubbock is larger than Odessa or Midland and it has always been bigger than San Angelo too. So you use the wrong figures in the comparison. Big just doesn't get it.

Putting all Recruiting and open borders aside for this discussion. Because those two things mask both your thoughts and mine as well as the value of a state crown. I'll tell what I think the difference in what you believe and what I believe. I don't think there is much difference in picking a team from 1000 boys in a high school and picking a team from 1500 boys in a high school. Permian has taken hits in the last over the last 15 years from smaller schools more often than not. I know what the failure of Permian has been. It's been from a lack of coaching and coaching continuity, period. Permian's kids have always been here. Did Abilene's fortunes rise because of a suddenly appearing talent pool. Did San Angelo's fortunes rise because of a suddenly appearing talent pool? No! They got better because of new coach's.

You remember that Lubbock High took on one of Permian's X coach's and kept him around for years. Putting it bluntly Lubbock was willing to give mediocrity a long term try out. Why would you think born talent is abundant in Lubbock for baseball but not football? I think by design, Lubbock gives more attention more importance to the hiring of a baseball coach than a football coach. Lubbock has the kids. Why won't Lubbock kids play football? Go no further than the won/ lost records. No kid wants to be a tackling dummy for a old time Permian team.

Talent, as you call it, is in every school. It's the same on I-20 as it is on I-35. Teams with good programs and coach's will develop what you perceive as talent. Schools without programs and good coach's won't bring out the kids and those that do show up will work long and hard on the wrong things and lose.

I think you and others take the side of a losing coach when he is trying to excuse a losing career with "we just didn't have enough talent".

Great post! Abilene has never been a hot bed of talent, but has been a hot bed of heart that lead to wins that on paper were impossible! That was instilled by the system and the coach!

[Eagledad]

Train and RD - Great discussion with some really good points, I think you're both onto something.

RD, you are correct in saying DFW has more talent. Just by it's very size the DFW metroplex will produce more top tier kids in a given year than either Lubbock or Odessa/Midland. Those kids are generally identified very early and tend to gravitate to the schools/programs that are most successful in football.

Train, you are correct in saying that great coaching makes a huge difference. Well the most successful DFW teams all tend to have great coaching staffs.

The problem for you guys and all of West TX is that by the 3rd round of the PO's the schools that are typically left to match up with are the ones with the combination of great talent and great coaching. Yes, you might catch a western DFW team in the 1st round and when that happens you have an even game and good chance for victory, ie. OP vs. Arl. Sam Houston. However by the 3rd round you are matching up with the Trinity's, Martin's, or Allen's in D1 and the Cedar Hill's, Guyer's or SLC's in D2. All talented teams with great coaching staffs.

While beating a well coached, talented team is a difficult task, no HS team is unbeatable. To accomplish that requires that your team is prepared for those battles by having played challenging teams that give them a flavor of the difficulty and speed of the games they will see in the 3rd round of the PO's. I have always thought that AHS under Coach Warren had the right formula. Each year they always scheduled one or two DFW teams in pre-district to give their kids that experience.

MOP, I firmly believe that is one of the main reasons that AHS was able to break through in 2009 and go all the way. I believe the rest of WT would do well to follow that example to give yourselves the best chance in round 3.

That's enough soapbox from the dark side, sorry for the interruption. Carry on with your discussion.

I agree on the AHS/Warren Comments! Although we had hope of a win and even a great showing against SLC in the pre-district last year, I think most of us knew it might get ugly and it did! Although I would have liked to have seen that game if we had kept the 1st quarter play calling going! Might have been a 70 to 69 game! (woulda shoulda coulda!)

Anyway that loss turned out to be a great growing experience and humbling experience for a team that needed to be knocked down to get back up stronger at that point. I firmly believe had that team won or even played a close game at that point complacency might have set in. Without that experience and learning what it took to compete with that level of team AHS would never have given Cedar Hill a scare and run for its money in the 3rd round! We got better because of the experience!

[Eagledad]

I think you missed some of my point so I will try it again. It's not 1980 anymore, the HS game has changed and evolved especially in the last 15 years. The teams that reach the 3rd round in region 1 are no longer talented but "ill coached" teams. Almost all have really good/great coaching AND lots of talent. "Well coached average" doesn't beat "well coached talented" very often any more. The proof is pretty obvious, since the end of the Midland Lee run I believe only two West TX teams have made it past the 3rd round. Midland once in 2002 and Abilene twice (my apologies if I missed team). More specifically Permian has been to the 3rd round and come away empty 4 times in that span, and 3 of those games were not even close. As you told me, "you can look it up, no supposition to it".

My suggestion that maybe West TX teams should mimic Abilene and schedule a game or two in pre-district with DFW teams to get prepared better for when the PO's arrive is strictly my opinion based on what I've observed over the last 10-15 years. I do appreciate that any suggestion of copying AHS is probably kryptonite as far as OP fans are concerned. I also do appreciate your point that scheduling a team like ET before you are ready is silly (see I do listen), but I wasn't suggesting that you necessarily schedule the DFW powerhouses. What's the matter with scheduling teams like Duncanville, Mansfield, Hebron, or Marcus. Certainly a pre-district game or two against some of those teams would help your kids improve more than a game with EP or RGV teams.

I think I've aired my suggestion in a couple posts, so I'll depart this conversation and leave your 3rd round dilemma to better minds than I. Perhaps when we finally get together over that cold one we can continue the MOJO history lesson (which I do enjoy hearing about)..

I may be wrong but Abilene typically has 3 DFW type teams on the schedule every year! Has for a long while and the 2010 schedule was nuts with 3 OOS teams (2 State champ Florida teams and a State Champ Louisianna team) then we thru a Longview in there and rounded it off with Belton (the year that future Texas QB was there).

Before you bring it up SLC...............yes that was the year of the 38-24 game in the 3rd round..........We did start a Soph JV QB who would the next year be moved to corner in that game! Our other half of the Sims squared combo was throwing up all day and was taking fluids in the first half! Might have had a chance if he would have been healthy but again.........woulda coulda shoulda!

[Eagledad]

13 not every thing I posted was directed towards you. Specifically the liberal point I made. But you had joined the exchange between Rockland and I and as I said, I was trying to draw him into giving me a definite description of what he describes as talent. The Rockland isn't the first or the last who has a opinion on what talent is but he's among many that won't come out and define it. The "liberal" remark I used came out of his thoughts of a past Lubbock High coach who was hired to win football games and failed to do so. So 50 % or there bout's is an acceptable result, a standard. Yet talent to win baseball but no talent to win football?..



I look at it as though the average of the next thousand kids born in Odessa Texas have the same capabilities as the next thousand kids that are born in any one city or attendance zone on I-35. Now if you and the Rock don't agree on that then you flat out insist that children with superior athletic genes (what I assume you and rock call talent) are born on the I-35 corridor.

I say and forever will say, that a tall fat kid born and raised in Odessa Texas will still be just a tall fat kid in Odessa Texas when he leaves Permian 18 years later. UNLESS he is given direction to excel in something and the better direction he is given the better he will be.

I say that a tall fat kid born and raised in in D/FW and raised in D/FW will still be a tall fat kid in D/FW when he leaves any school 18 years later. UNLESS he is given direction to excel in something and the better direction he is given the better he will be.

My links/sources on this are visual and living with it. 49 years of Permian High School football. That includes the 80's as you pointed out 13, that time period we no longer live in. I'll tell you exactly how it was in the 60's through 2014, not so long ago. Permian football fortunes rose and fell directly in relation to changes in football coach's. That's all. Allman solved this district in the short time he was here and SLC didn't beat Permian in the playoffs because they were blessed at birth with having better gene talent. SLC won because they had, had a better coach, LONGER than Permian had.

I'm telling you and you can take it for what it's worth. Feldt is building his own talent out of Odessa born and raised kids of all races. West Texas football fields are the same size as those any where in the state. Permian facilities are equal or better than most in the state. Our kids eat and dump the same way as those you think are blessed special genes from birth. And by the way, concerning genes, neither of you have a patent any greater than mine in predicting the future.

As sure as you are sure that the west can't ever again, I'm equally sure that we will. If left alone, un- bridled by ECISD he will wade through D/FW sooner than either of you hope. Fellows that's about as plain as I can make it.

Train, I think the point is a statistical one! Would you agree that if I gave you 25 shag golf balls (players) and I gave SLC 100 Pro-V1 golf balls (players). Then I had each of you try to hit as many on the green (great players) from 100 yards out as you can.................who would come out on top?

Now to illustrate your point lets say you are the number 1 golfer in the nation (coach) and SLC is an average golfer..............Yes your great golfer ability will probably put the 20 out of 25 on the green and SLC average golfer will put 20 out of 100. But you add a great golfer to the SLC pool and you get 80 out of 100 on the green.

Great Coaching can take average to great yes! But great coaching can also take great to amazing! That is what we are facing in the 3rd round and beyond! Great coach and great talent which is hard to beat with great coaching and less talent.

The other area that DFW type teams have the advantage is the talent level of the bench! We can put a great 22 on the field but with any major injuries we are typically in trouble whereas the DFW team just throw the next D1 athlete on the field!

[Eagledad]

Abilene's 2009 run came, in my opinion, because of the following:

1. Great Coaching Staff
2. Tons of Heart
3. Great talent in the 22 on the field
4. Facing DFW teams all year long
5. We stayed healthly the entire season with only 1 major injury to a position that just happened to have some depth.
6. That "it" factor on the team as a whole

There is not one Abilene fan that can say in 2009 when Cedar Hill came on the field it did not look like a college team playing a highschool team! On paper to this day that team overcame from round 3 on.

[mojotrain]

Train, I think the point is a statistical one! Would you agree that if I gave you 25 shag golf balls (players) and I gave SLC 100 Pro-V1 golf balls (players). Then I had each of you try to hit as many on the green (great players) from 100 yards out as you can.................who would come out on top?

Now to illustrate your point lets say you are the number 1 golfer in the nation (coach) and SLC is an average golfer..............Yes your great golfer ability will probably put the 20 out of 25 on the green and SLC average golfer will put 20 out of 100. But you add a great golfer to the SLC pool and you get 80 out of 100 on the green.

Great Coaching can take average to great yes! But great coaching can also take great to amazing! That is what we are facing in the 3rd round and beyond! Great coach and great talent which is hard to beat with great coaching and less talent.

The other area that DFW type teams have the advantage is the talent level of the bench! We can put a great 22 on the field but with any major injuries we are typically in trouble whereas the DFW team just throw the next D1 athlete on the field!

I don't play golf so if I miss the answer you want cut me some slack. mmmmmmmmm ok I'd say the winner between myself and some one who had played or who had had instruction of any kind would win regardless of the balls.

[mojotrain]

Abilene's 2009 run came, in my opinion, because of the following:

1. Great Coaching Staff
2. Tons of Heart
3. Great talent in the 22 on the field
4. Facing DFW teams all year long
5. We stayed healthly the entire season with only 1 major injury to a position that just happened to have some depth.
6. That "it" factor on the team as a whole

There is not one Abilene fan that can say in 2009 when Cedar Hill came on the field it did not look like a college team playing a highschool team! On paper to this day that team overcame from round 3 on.

I'm understanding. Abilene of the 50's had the same thing that your 2009 crew had. Maybe they didn't play DFW teams though. But for sure the other five items on your list work for todays Eagles. Truthfully, it still doesn't make sense to me how in 1959 all the talent just up and moved out of Abilene. I know ya'll being like OHS, had to split talent with Cooper and although Cooper was good they never won a state crown. So talent was scarce in Abilene from 1959 until 2009. Gee that's fifty years without and then all of a sudden WHOO HAW!. Talent moves back into the key city.

Well Permian didn't take that route. In 1959 Permian opened up and Good coach's took average to good, some not so good and built our own talent and formed it into a team. We hired even better coach's, those coach's then took the team and parlayed that plan into a 35 plus year dynasty. I'd rather refer to it as a program. When I speak of talent I'm talking about high school talent, very very few were ever considered D-! material So that's our theory on TALENT. We haven't ever just sat back and waited for couples with magic genes to move to Odessa and propagate our neighborhoods with talent. That's how we won 6 crowns from our beginning in 1959 through the mid 1990's. .That same plan may have served the Eagles well. Our record through that time against the Eagles was like 30-5-2.

I realize plans work differently for Abilene than they do Permian but here is what worked for Permian's 6 state championships concerning pre-district games. I'm going to tell you who Permian's played in those pre-district games and show you the scores to give you a clear indication of how tough those teams were. You know, "kinda find out where we are at thingy'"

1965- Permian 14 Tascosa 6 Permian 6 Monterey 7 Permian 27 El Paso Eastwood 6
1972- Permian 27 Tascosa 0 Permian 46 Fort Worth Western Hills 0
1980 Permian 24 El Paso Coronado 0 Permian 13 Amarillo 0 Permian 16 Fort Worth Wyatt 0
1984 Permian 26 El Paso Coronado 0 Permian 39 El Paso Hanks 0 Permian 55 For Worth Eastern Hills 7
1998 Permian 55 El Paso Austin 0 Permian 21 Marshall 7 Permian 28 Amarillo 0
1991 Permian 59 El Paso Irvin6 Permian 35 Tyler J T 6 Permian 28 Amarillo 3

So there ya have it, Permian scheduling the great Dread Naughts of Texas high school football, " just to see where they were at". They did and it worked.

[Eagledad]

I don't play golf so if I miss the answer you want cut me some slack. mmmmmmmmm ok I'd say the winner between myself and some one who had played or who had had instruction of any kind would win regardless of the balls.

Slack is given! Basically it is a statistical truth that if you have more chances the more likely you are to find a diamond!

[Eagledad]

I'm understanding. Abilene of the 50's had the same thing that your 2009 crew had. Maybe they didn't play DFW teams though. But for sure the other five items on your list work for todays Eagles. Truthfully, it still doesn't make sense to me how in 1959 all the talent just up and moved out of Abilene. I know ya'll being like OHS, had to split talent with Cooper and although Cooper was good they never won a state crown. So talent was scarce in Abilene from 1959 until 2009. Gee that's fifty years without and then all of a sudden WHOO HAW!. Talent moves back into the key city.

Well Permian didn't take that route. In 1959 Permian opened up and Good coach's took average to good, some not so good and built our own talent and formed it into a team. We hired even better coach's, those coach's then took the team and parlayed that plan into a 35 plus year dynasty. I'd rather refer to it as a program. When I speak of talent I'm talking about high school talent, very very few were ever considered D-! material So that's our theory on TALENT. We haven't ever just sat back and waited for couples with magic genes to move to Odessa and propagate our neighborhoods with talent. That's how we won 6 crowns from our beginning in 1959 through the mid 1990's. .That same plan may have served the Eagles well. Our record through that time against the Eagles was like 30-5-2.

I realize plans work differently for Abilene than they do Permian but here is what worked for Permian's 6 state championships concerning pre-district games. I'm going to tell you who Permian's played in those pre-district games and show you the scores to give you a clear indication of how tough those teams were. You know, "kinda find out where we are at thingy'"

1965- Permian 14 Tascosa 6 Permian 6 Monterey 7 Permian 27 El Paso Eastwood 6
1972- Permian 27 Tascosa 0 Permian 46 Fort Worth Western Hills 0
1980 Permian 24 El Paso Coronado 0 Permian 13 Amarillo 0 Permian 16 Fort Worth Wyatt 0
1984 Permian 26 El Paso Coronado 0 Permian 39 El Paso Hanks 0 Permian 55 For Worth Eastern Hills 7
1998 Permian 55 El Paso Austin 0 Permian 21 Marshall 7 Permian 28 Amarillo 0
1991 Permian 59 El Paso Irvin6 Permian 35 Tyler J T 6 Permian 28 Amarillo 3

So there ya have it, Permian scheduling the great Dread Naughts of Texas high school football, " just to see where they were at". They did and it worked.

Problem is during those years the game changed and speed became more of a factor than power. As it has been said..............."you can't coach speed" Fact is they have 4 times the opportunity to find speed to fill 22 spots on the team.

During the days of the power I, single Wing and wishbone, 3 yards and cloud of dust was the norm and could get away with a RB running a 4.7 or 4.8. Now days linemen run that and weigh 300lbs. Most teams threw the ball 8 to 12 times a game too. Now days they throw it that much in a quarter of play! The game have evolved and although coaching IS a major factor you can't win without some talent and speed because you can't defend the spread without it! There is a reason Saban is recruiting 275lbs DL and 230lbs DE instead of the 300lbs types................speed to defend against the Missouri's and AM's spread offenses of the football world today.

I played on the Eagle team from 1983 to 1985 and I have looked back at the stats and we threw the ball on average 8 times a game those years. 3rd and 7 was a running down then. BTW we tied the Permian team that year in a great game at Shotwell 7 to 7.

In the end I think we agree good coaching of average players can form a team that is good. And we agree that bad coaching of good players can form a bad team. But we must also agree that good coaching of good players will beat either of the two scenarios above MOST of the time.

[Warbird_Dad]

I'm understanding. Abilene of the 50's had the same thing that your 2009 crew had. Maybe they didn't play DFW teams though. But for sure the other five items on your list work for todays Eagles. Truthfully, it still doesn't make sense to me how in 1959 all the talent just up and moved out of Abilene. I know ya'll being like OHS, had to split talent with Cooper and although Cooper was good they never won a state crown. So talent was scarce in Abilene from 1959 until 2009. Gee that's fifty years without and then all of a sudden WHOO HAW!. Talent moves back into the key city.

Well Permian didn't take that route. In 1959 Permian opened up and Good coach's took average to good, some not so good and built our own talent and formed it into a team. We hired even better coach's, those coach's then took the team and parlayed that plan into a 35 plus year dynasty. I'd rather refer to it as a program. When I speak of talent I'm talking about high school talent, very very few were ever considered D-! material So that's our theory on TALENT. We haven't ever just sat back and waited for couples with magic genes to move to Odessa and propagate our neighborhoods with talent. That's how we won 6 crowns from our beginning in 1959 through the mid 1990's. .That same plan may have served the Eagles well. Our record through that time against the Eagles was like 30-5-2.

I realize plans work differently for Abilene than they do Permian but here is what worked for Permian's 6 state championships concerning pre-district games. I'm going to tell you who Permian's played in those pre-district games and show you the scores to give you a clear indication of how tough those teams were. You know, "kinda find out where we are at thingy'"

1965- Permian 14 Tascosa 6 Permian 6 Monterey 7 Permian 27 El Paso Eastwood 6
1972- Permian 27 Tascosa 0 Permian 46 Fort Worth Western Hills 0
1980 Permian 24 El Paso Coronado 0 Permian 13 Amarillo 0 Permian 16 Fort Worth Wyatt 0
1984 Permian 26 El Paso Coronado 0 Permian 39 El Paso Hanks 0 Permian 55 For Worth Eastern Hills 7
1998 Permian 55 El Paso Austin 0 Permian 21 Marshall 7 Permian 28 Amarillo 0
1991 Permian 59 El Paso Irvin6 Permian 35 Tyler J T 6 Permian 28 Amarillo 3

So there ya have it, Permian scheduling the great Dread Naughts of Texas high school football, " just to see where they were at". They did and it worked.

Yea, the talent was here...just look at the 79 Cooper team that was ranked #1 ALL SEASON and then lost in the 1st round to Lewisville. That team (by Abilene standards) was loaded with talent (Terry Orr, Greg Berry, Lanny Dycus) but couldn't make it to week 2 of the playoffs. Even my Sr. year (80) we only lost 1 game all year to eventual state champion (yea, you guessed it Permian Panthers) but didn't go to the playoffs because of the 1 team rule back then. Cooper also came close back in the Dominic Rhodes days but couldn't get past Drew Brees. Talent is and has been here...just only pulled it all together once in the last 50 years.

[Warbird_Dad]

Abilene's 2009 run came, in my opinion, because of the following:

1. Great Coaching Staff
2. Tons of Heart
3. Great talent in the 22 on the field
4. Facing DFW teams all year long
5. We stayed healthly the entire season with only 1 major injury to a position that just happened to have some depth.
6. That "it" factor on the team as a whole

There is not one Abilene fan that can say in 2009 when Cedar Hill came on the field it did not look like a college team playing a highschool team! On paper to this day that team overcame from round 3 on.

That is a day I'll never forget and a feeling I'll never forget when I first laid eyes on that CH team. Wow...!! But, that made the victory that much sweeter

[Eagle82]

Based of Mojo's posts I do have to ask.

WTH happened to AH after the 50's?
We all know about Cooper opening up. Ok.
Boundaries - Today Cooper fans are still ticked at the most recent changes in the boundaries. For years AH says they gave the advantage to Cooper. Now Cooper says it gives the advantage to AH. Boo hoo.

You can't tell me from the sixties on through the time Warren came around there was a lack of kids and that boundaries changed everything.
So without the most recent boundary changes, AH would not have had the success it's had?

What about coaching, like Mojo states? During that time, did AISD just not give a crap about AH and apply its resources toward Cooper in regards to getting good coaches, etc? If so, could the same be said about Odessa and Permian, Permian getting the special treatment from the school district?

[mojotrain]

Yea, the talent was here...just look at the 79 Cooper team that was ranked #1 ALL SEASON and then lost in the 1st round to Lewisville. That team (by Abilene standards) was loaded with talent (Terry Orr, Greg Berry, Lanny Dycus) but couldn't make it to week 2 of the playoffs. Even my Sr. year (80) we only lost 1 game all year to eventual state champion (yea, you guessed it Permian Panthers) but didn't go to the playoffs because of the 1 team rule back then. Cooper also came close back in the Dominic Rhodes days but couldn't get past Drew Brees. Talent is and has been here...just only pulled it all together once in the last 50 years.

This is close to what I've said all along except I don't call it talent. What ever it is, be it in football or track, it's not conducive to winning football teams until a good coach takes that material in hand. Then it can become talent, then it can become a team. And all schools of our size have that material in hand or on campus. Granted that material may not be out for football. It could be out for football or it could be in the band. That too is something excellent coach's do. They get the kids out.

"Talent is and has been here...just only pulled together once in the last 50 years" I again agree but my say would read like this, the material has always been here and after 50 years a good coach pulled it all together.

[Warbird_Dad]

This is close to what I've said all along except I don't call it talent. What ever it is, be it in football or track, it's not conducive to winning football teams until a good coach takes that material in hand. Then it can become talent, then it can become a team. And all schools of our size have that material in hand or on campus. Granted that material may not be out for football. It could be out for football or it could be in the band. That too is something excellent coach's do. They get the kids out.

"Talent is and has been here...just only pulled together once in the last 50 years" I again agree but my say would read like this, the material has always been here and after 50 years a good coach pulled it all together.

I would agree with that....better stated.