West Texas - When will we see them come back to dominance? 2015 Districts 2/3 6A

[Abilenefan]

West Texas will never return to dominance, the march of demographics and money is ineorexable. The comparative advantage West Texas had was single minded dedication to excellence... The metro mess cracked that code. It's all over. And the state is all the poorer for it. Long live MOJO!

I do think that every so often, the stars will align and a team from the L Southwest Conference will make a run. I also think its more of a concentration of the population and the decrease in the West. Also the transfers that happen for "educational purposes" would never pass our DEC. We have several teams that still perform way above their talent level as compared to the talent on the perenially sucessful programs in the metro mess.

[mojotrain]

Safe statement Fire. Who's to be around here in 2040 to remind you?.

[Eagle82]

Fire hit the nail on the head.
Abilene fan as well.

[mojotrain]

Fire hit the nail on the head.
Abilene fan as well.

Safe statement 82. Who's to be around here in 2040 to remind you?.

[RocklandDragon]

Safe statement Fire. Who's to be around here in 2040 to remind you?.

I will.

[RocklandDragon]

For my side of the state (Panhandle/South Plains), I'm not sure if we'll ever get there in my lifetime. I would love for it to happen but watching these players in DFW n Houston, we are outmatched on talent by solid margins. We won't be state powers realistically until we can close that gap.

Stangs pointed out that LBK is a baseball town and we are. We focus a lot more on the diamond than the gridiron.

Our smaller schools fare much better against the rest of the state.

[King_Curtis]

West Texas will never return to dominance. Once or twice a decade I would say we'll see someone make it to the state finals, but the days of being feared are long gone. When a team like Permian or Lee have a weak spot, it's up to the coaches to reorganize the pieces of the puzzle in order to mask that weakness. If a metroplex team identifies a hole in their lineup, it's too easy for them to address their deficiencies via free-agency.

[mojotrain]

West Texas will never return to dominance. Once or twice a decade I would say we'll see someone make it to the state finals, but the days of being feared are long gone. When a team like Permian or Lee have a weak spot, it's up to the coaches to reorganize the pieces of the puzzle in order to mask that weakness. If a metroplex team identifies a hole in their lineup, it's too easy for them to address their deficiencies via free-agency.

nm

[Jayhawker332]

It's not just West Texas. The days of the sustained dynasties in any sport at any level are probably gone for good. Parity is king now. The NFL ushered in this era with the salary cap to maintain the competitive balance. The franchises that have smart people in charge are able to work the cap to their advantage and scout for great players and coach them up when they get there to maintain the level of winning they are accustomed to. This can be true for our teams out here in West Texas. While we may not have the sheer numbers of great skill players or size on the offensive and defensive lines we still have players in this district that I would put up against any player anywhere in the state. We also have the best collection of coaches that we have had in awhile. Coach Davis at Central has rebuilt that program in short order and has them trending upward, Losing Warren hurts but Coach Van Cox knows the formula to keep them competitive statewide for a long time to come. I am very excited to see Coach Feldt continuing to build on the success we had last season and I feel that last season is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Mojo. So no we may not dominate consistently like we have in the past but it's going to be harder and harder for any team to do that in today's landscape, not just West Texas teams. I do think the teams in this district will continue knocking on the door of the 3rd round and some will start to break through that door.

[mojotrain]

West Texas will never return to dominance. Once or twice a decade I would say we'll see someone make it to the state finals, but the days of being feared are long gone. When a team like Permian or Lee have a weak spot, it's up to the coaches to reorganize the pieces of the puzzle in order to mask that weakness. If a metroplex team identifies a hole in their lineup, it's too easy for them to address their deficiencies via free-agency.

In speaking of West Texas what we are specifically speaking about is Odessa Permian. "Once or twice in a decade" would be suitable. That leaves eight years for the other two hundred plus teams in the state to make it to the finals.
I get your point about metroplex team's putting out help wanted signs for their needs. But once that practice is state policy I'm not sure I'd want to bid against West Texas for players.

[mojotrain]

For my side of the state (Panhandle/South Plains), I'm not sure if we'll ever get there in my lifetime. I would love for it to happen but watching these players in DFW n Houston, we are outmatched on talent by solid margins. We won't be state powers realistically until we can close that gap.

Stangs pointed out that LBK is a baseball town and we are. We focus a lot more on the diamond than the gridiron.

Our smaller schools fare much better against the rest of the state.

Well in chat site terms you are kinda DFW n Houston now days. Unless you are suggesting something else concerning talent, I suggest that talent is built. That takes a coach building programs and those programs building talent. Answer this, just what was the talent difference in Lubbock schools vs Odessa Permian in the 40 or so years that Permian was dominating the Panhandle Plains teams. You mention focus is talent the same thing..

[RocklandDragon]

Well in chat site terms you are kinda DFW n Houston now days. Unless you are suggesting something else concerning talent, I suggest that talent is built. That takes a coach building programs and those programs building talent. Answer this, just what was the talent difference in Lubbock schools vs Odessa Permian in the 40 or so years that Permian was dominating the Panhandle Plains teams. You mention focus is talent the same thing..

Compare a team like Wollforth Frenship, Amarillo High, or Lubbock Monterey and have them line up against a Galena Park North Shore, Spring Westfield, The Woodlands High or Euless Trinity and you can tell who has the size and talent advantage easily. Give each team the same level of coaching and the schools from the large metro areas will come out on top. San Angelo Central, Frenship, Amarillo have great coaches and they love their football but they still have a gap of talent to bridge or find a way to minimize the talent advantage a DFW team has. Remember Central's first victory in the playoffs in 2014? Arlington Bowie was going up and down the field against the Bobcats but Central made one fantastic comeback, and shellshocked the Volunteers. Listening to that game, the commentators spoke how fast, how skilled the Volunteers were and the size of them was nothing to sneeze at. The Volunteers didn't even win their district. The Martin Warriors did and they were more impressive than Bowie.

Lubbock is a baseball town but Amarillo isn't and when the Sandies have to play a Metroplex school in the playoffs, that's when their run ends. Been that way since 1992. A run first, run second, run third and pass on a bootleg setup works great against teams here but against teams such as Arlington Martin, Allen, Euless Trinity, and Cedar Hill, that attack is thwarted. Why? The players that the DFW teams have can sustain Amarillo's ground attack due to size advantage in the trenches, depth, and personnel in the skill positions. Amarillo's got some big boys and they play tough but DFW playoff teams simply have more of them and the DI talent on the edges to boot.

One of our best teams in recent memory, Lubbock Coronado in 2007 had great players and amassed a solid 11-2 record for the year. They defeated every LSWC opponent they played. Only loss in season was to Lubbock Monterey. When they played Arlington Bowie, there was no way they could keep up with the skill players of the Volunteers. The line was big and could move fluidly down the field when they needed to. Zouzalik and the Mustangs tried to score often to make it a high scoring affair and go blow for blow, but the Volunteers couldn't be stopped.

Wolfforth Frenship could be the South Plains team that could eventually challenge DFW and break the 3rd round MetroHex we have had for over 35 years in the largest classification. They have beaten DFW teams in the playoffs when they were in 4A and so did Lubbock Estacado. If they can keep on growing in numbers, maintain the good size they have in the trenches and attract more families from Lubbock to play there (i.e. families that have talented players), then they have a chance. Still though, when I see teams like Spring Westfield and compare them to us, it makes me shudder.

Lubbock ISD is too splintered and either all the schools need to be in 5A or below to have better success in football.


Teams like San Angelo Central have the capability to be that team to challenge the Metroplex and get more playoff success like Abilene High has. Right now, in the Permian Basin, they haven't gone past Round 3 in the playoffs since 2002. The 2008 Permian squad was the closest one to do. If the Permian Basin can hone in and develop as much talent as they can, great! I'll be glad to see that happen but DFW, Austin, Houston and even San Antonio have massive advantages when it comes to talent being within their county limits.

[Jayhawker332]

I agree with Train on this one. Having the best talent doesn't always guarantee a win. There are all kinds of examples. Look at Kentucky this year in the Final Four. That team had at least 8 NBA players and future pros and the Wisconsin team they played had 3 at the most. They played as a team and were extremely well coached and down the stretch the coaching and teamwork won out. Yes, having the talent advantage will give you a chance to win more of those games then you lose. But there will be times when you run into a team that is well coached, unintimidated and plays together as a team. Lots of times when the pressure is on the team loaded with talent folds because they are not used to being in a dog fight. The Permian team in 2008 you mentioned didn't lose because of a talent deficiency, they lost because of turnovers. This may ruffle some feathers but in my opinion Permian was the better team that day and I am confident had they won that game, would have gone on and won the whole thing. If Allman had stayed we would have won it all by now. We have a coach in place that I think is a more complete coach on both sides of the ball than Allman was and he is starting to put it together. The Abilene's, San Angelo's, Frenships, Permian's etc. have the coaching and ability to win against metroplex teams. Abilene has already proved that and I think some other West Texas teams will soon do the same thing.

[mojotrain]

Compare a team like Wollforth Frenship, Amarillo High, or Lubbock Monterey and have them line up against a Galena Park North Shore, Spring Westfield, The Woodlands High or Euless Trinity and you can tell who has the size and talent advantage easily. Give each team the same level of coaching and the schools from the large metro areas will come out on top. San Angelo Central, Frenship, Amarillo have great coaches and they love their football but they still have a gap of talent to bridge or find a way to minimize the talent advantage a DFW team has. Remember Central's first victory in the playoffs in 2014? Arlington Bowie was going up and down the field against the Bobcats but Central made one fantastic comeback, and shellshocked the Volunteers. Listening to that game, the commentators spoke how fast, how skilled the Volunteers were and the size of them was nothing to sneeze at. The Volunteers didn't even win their district. The Martin Warriors did and they were more impressive than Bowie.

Lubbock is a baseball town but Amarillo isn't and when the Sandies have to play a Metroplex school in the playoffs, that's when their run ends. Been that way since 1992. A run first, run second, run third and pass on a bootleg setup works great against teams here but against teams such as Arlington Martin, Allen, Euless Trinity, and Cedar Hill, that attack is thwarted. Why? The players that the DFW teams have can sustain Amarillo's ground attack due to size advantage in the trenches, depth, and personnel in the skill positions. Amarillo's got some big boys and they play tough but DFW playoff teams simply have more of them and the DI talent on the edges to boot.

One of our best teams in recent memory, Lubbock Coronado in 2007 had great players and amassed a solid 11-2 record for the year. They defeated every LSWC opponent they played. Only loss in season was to Lubbock Monterey. When they played Arlington Bowie, there was no way they could keep up with the skill players of the Volunteers. The line was big and could move fluidly down the field when they needed to. Zouzalik and the Mustangs tried to score often to make it a high scoring affair and go blow for blow, but the Volunteers couldn't be stopped.

Wolfforth Frenship could be the South Plains team that could eventually challenge DFW and break the 3rd round MetroHex we have had for over 35 years in the largest classification. They have beaten DFW teams in the playoffs when they were in 4A and so did Lubbock Estacado. If they can keep on growing in numbers, maintain the good size they have in the trenches and attract more families from Lubbock to play there (i.e. families that have talented players), then they have a chance. Still though, when I see teams like Spring Westfield and compare them to us, it makes me shudder.

Lubbock ISD is too splintered and either all the schools need to be in 5A or below to have better success in football.


Teams like San Angelo Central have the capability to be that team to challenge the Metroplex and get more playoff success like Abilene High has. Right now, in the Permian Basin, they haven't gone past Round 3 in the playoffs since 2002. The 2008 Permian squad was the closest one to do. If the Permian Basin can hone in and develop as much talent as they can, great! I'll be glad to see that happen but DFW, Austin, Houston and even San Antonio have massive advantages when it comes to talent being within their county limits.

How do you define talent?

[RocklandDragon]

How do you define talent?

I define it as someone that has a skill set for whatever field they enter in and their skill set is higher than their fellow peers. In the case of football and physical talent, kids that can catch anything, jump higher, accelerate right off the snap, throw bullets, naturally bigger, have fantastic hand-eye coordination, balance, and natural strength. Just on numbers alone, the Metroplex has many more of those kids than we do. It's not spread out evenly in DFW either. Adding on top of that, in many of the affluent schools, they have camps, resources, and coaching to get the most out of the player. The better programs in DFW can utilize that natural talent and hone their skills to maximize their abilities.

It's what we face right now in the Panhandle/South Plains. Don't get it twisted and say that we're gonna just lay down and die. We'll battle any team we face (look at Monterey facing the juggernaut Southlake Carroll in 2003--game was a close 38-31 contest) but it is the main reason we haven't been able to defeat a DFW team in Round 3 for quite awhile. The teams we have faced in Round 3 have been simply better overall.

[RocklandDragon]

I agree with Train on this one. Having the best talent doesn't always guarantee a win. There are all kinds of examples. Look at Kentucky this year in the Final Four. That team had at least 8 NBA players and future pros and the Wisconsin team they played had 3 at the most. They played as a team and were extremely well coached and down the stretch the coaching and teamwork won out. Yes, having the talent advantage will give you a chance to win more of those games then you lose. But there will be times when you run into a team that is well coached, unintimidated and plays together as a team. Lots of times when the pressure is on the team loaded with talent folds because they are not used to being in a dog fight. The Permian team in 2008 you mentioned didn't lose because of a talent deficiency, they lost because of turnovers. This may ruffle some feathers but in my opinion Permian was the better team that day and I am confident had they won that game, would have gone on and won the whole thing. If Allman had stayed we would have won it all by now. We have a coach in place that I think is a more complete coach on both sides of the ball than Allman was and he is starting to put it together. The Abilene's, San Angelo's, Frenships, Permian's etc. have the coaching and ability to win against metroplex teams. Abilene has already proved that and I think some other West Texas teams will soon do the same thing.

Defintely true. It's what happened in 2009 with Abilene High and their excellent path to the State Title. They faced a Cedar Hill team that nobody but a few gave a chance of beating. Anyone remember that Longhorn squad and they had DI talent in many places. The Abilene Eagles took it to em and outplayed the Longhorns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGWzrpXmSmU

Lookin at that video and Cedar Hill was bigger than Abilene in near everything. Especially the Longhorn line vs. the Eagle defensive front. Yet, the Eagles got so many great stops on defense with a fantastic strategy and sheer will. Eagle players had some talent on their team too. Ronnell and Herschel Sims were exciting to watch and could get so many yards with just a sliver of daylight, that's all they needed.

Against Katy High, the Eagles were definitely smaller but the defensive strategy up front paid off as the Eagles were lined up about 1 yd off the ball to hit the gaps at a better rate of speed and momentum. Herschel Sims was relatively contained but Ronnell Sims wasn't. He played some fantastic ball against Katy.

It can be done. It has been done and teams like Abilene can minimize the size advantage and talent advantage an opponent may have with preparation and sheer will to fight. A great strategy to limit the opponent's strengths such as Abilene's method to stop Katy's ground attack is good too.

I think San Angelo Central is in the best position to break through Round 3. Also, it's not like we're just facing any DFW school. These schools we face in Round 3 are the best left standing.

[Jayhawker332]

Agreed Dragon the teams we see in round 3 are loaded top to bottom in talent. I have to wonder what the people in the metroplex would be saying if we had beaten Allen in 2008 and gone on to win state. I know that is a big if but with Abilene winning it all in 2009 would everyone be looking at the teams from West Texas as a bunch of kids long on heart but short on talent? I agree 100% that we don't have the talent depth that metroplex, Houston or San Antonio teams have but I still think we can run out 11 players on offense and defense that can compete on a given day. With summer camps and 7 on 7 becoming more prevalent I think that helps level the playing field. I think good coaching makes more of a difference in football than in any other sport so a great coach can somewhat level the playing field. Ultimately it boils down more to the Jimmies and Joes but there are some pretty good Jimmies and Joes right here in West Texas.

[mojotrain]

Really, was 15 years ago that far back? That was when Midland Lee slobber knocked the State's "special" gene pools and that wasl three years in a row. Some who expound on superior gene pools in specific areas will tell you in the next opportunity to talk of Midland Lee that Lee had only one man. The gene believers would tell you genes just moved out of Midland overnight.

Heck yes I fret about our position but I'm not so clueless about high school football that I blame it on a long gone gene pool. Permian showed what she could do with a decent coach when Allman came to town.. For gosh sakes Allman replaced a coach who was brought to Permian following two or three 3-7 seasons in a row. That was a formula for failure by design. This district watched for three years as Permian improved by leaps and bounds and I'm sure had concerns of seeing the old Permian return. Allman left and so did the program he was building. That success wasn't genes, pure and simple it was a coach. Now we have another coach who IMO is better than Allman. In his short time here his assistants have been going through a revolving door and yet he is on pace to exceed Allman.


For those who think you own the market on a perceived special gene pool, I'll tell you what your special gene pool is. Better yet read all you can on these football chat sites about "open borders" and "recruiting". Now look who's winning. Do you see a correlation? That's the practice you are bragging on.

[Shady12]

In speaking of West Texas what we are specifically speaking about is Odessa Permian.

I wonder why the thread wasn't titled "Odessa Permian- when will we see them come back to dominance" ?

As for actual West Texas, it was one district that dominated for that long stretch. Not really fair to compare to any other region, just to other single districts. In a short while there will only five 6A teams left from the LSWC.

[svhorns]

Really, was 15 years ago that far back? That was when Midland Lee slobber knocked the State's "special" gene pools and that wasl three years in a row. Some who expound on superior gene pools in specific areas will tell you in the next opportunity to talk of Midland Lee that Lee had only one man. The gene believers would tell you genes just moved out of Midland overnight.



Heck yes I fret about our position but I'm not so clueless about high school football that I blame it on a long gone gene pool. Permian showed what she could do with a decent coach when Allman came to town.. For gosh sakes Allman replaced a coach who was brought to Permian following two or three 3-7 seasons in a row. That was a formula for failure by design. This district watched for three years as Permian improved by leaps and bounds and I'm sure had concerns of seeing the old Permian return. Allman left and so did the program he was building. That success wasn't genes, pure and simple it was a coach. Now we have another coach who IMO is better than Allman. In his short time here his assistants have been going through a revolving door and yet he is on pace to exceed Allman.





For those who think you own the market on a perceived special gene pool, I'll tell you what your special gene pool is. Better yet read all you can on these football chat sites about "open borders" and "recruiting". Now look who's winning. Do you see a correlation? That's the practice you are bragging on.

Two. Winston and Benson.

[mojotrain]

Two. Winston and Benson.

I know that and you know that but those who have always down played Lee don't know that. They had a great coach.

[mojotrain]

I wonder why the thread wasn't titled "Odessa Permian- when will we see them come back to dominance" ?

As for actual West Texas, it was one district that dominated for that long stretch. Not really fair to compare to any other region, just to other single districts. In a short while there will only five 6A teams left from the LSWC.

The topic title was West Texas but the first post was directed at Permian. But the talking point shouldn't be on Permian alone. Lee, San Angelo and Cooper had loads to do with the Permian success. Even go back to the late 50's and thrown in Abilene, put the stats on the table and the want-a-be's start throwing yeah but's.

[Eagle82]

So define dominance.

I define it as consistent championships. While it seems like yesterday, 2009 is now six seasons ago. Our little tykes play their rear ends off and on occasion, as has been posted in this thread, they will break through and make a solid run. It's highly doubtful though that this will occur year after year after year.

I see where mojotrain is coming from though. When they had good administration and coaching in place, their little tykes whooped a lot of butt against opponents who outsized them. So yes, they have been there, done that so they believe if it happened before, it can happen again.

If anything is different between now and then it's the athlete who is much faster and stronger.

[Jayhawker332]

I think you're definition would have to depend on how often consistent is. To be considered dominant you have to consistently put yourself in position to win championships. Even during Mojo's heyday they never won back to back championships. Abilene and Lee have both accomplished that feat and Allen obviously just did. But Mojo was consistently making quarter, semi and finals appearances. I don't think the fact that they didn't win 2 or 3 consecutive titles makes them less dominant than the other programs I mentioned. The playoffs have been watered down with 2 divisions and four teams getting in but it is still difficult to win a title.

[mojotrain]

So define dominance.

I define it as consistent championships. While it seems like yesterday, 2009 is now six seasons ago. Our little tykes play their rear ends off and on occasion, as has been posted in this thread, they will break through and make a solid run. It's highly doubtful though that this will occur year after year after year.

I see where mojotrain is coming from though. When they had good administration and coaching in place, their little tykes whooped a lot of butt against opponents who outsized them. So yes, they have been there, done that so they believe if it happened before, it can happen again.

If anything is different between now and then it's the athlete who is much faster and stronger.

All athletes in all sports in every town, can be much faster and stronger.

[Eagle82]

Is Odessa experiencing the same fallout?

(MIDLAND, TX) - Dozens of Faculty and Staff members at Midland ISD may be out of a job due to the economic impact of the oil bust.

This is according to our sister station KMID. They report Superintendent Ryder Warren claims the state is cutting costs within MISD, providing funds at a much lower rate than last year.

Student enrollment is expected to drop for the first time in several years, and the change could prove drastic. As many as 700 students are leaving the district - a statistic directly related to the downturn of the region's oil industry.

In response to lower enrollment, 80 full-time administrative, teaching, and support positions will likely be cut. The district is already anticipating the move.

The Board of Trustees is still trying to work out the details with the staff of MISD, so the budget hearings and final decisions are expected to carry on through the month.

http://www.bigcountryhomepage.com/ne...-district-jobs

[Eagle82]

All athletes in all sports in every town, can be much faster and stronger.

Of course they can, but... The advantage in the metroplex is that these athletes can move around from school to school without the families actually having to relocate so therefore they have an advantage at the number of these athletes that are available.

[mojotrain]

Of course they can, but... The advantage in the metroplex is that these athletes can move around from school to school without the families actually having to relocate so therefore they have an advantage at the number of these athletes that are available.

Good gravy! read the last paragraph in my post #108 again for the first time. Thanks for the positive reinforcement,,,,I guess. And in case you missed it I also said (perhaps on another site) that there is nothing magic about winning a state crown when you can recruit or entice via open borders or as privates do, recruit. If you can't win with that empowerment (UIL) behind you, the coach should be terminated. How in the heck could boasting of a state crown using that ploy impress anyone except those who do the same?

[Eagle82]

Good gravy! read the last paragraph in my post #108 again for the first time. Thanks for the positive reinforcement,,,,I guess. And in case you missed it I also said (perhaps on another site) that there is nothing magic about winning a state crown when you can recruit or entice via open borders or as privates do, recruit. If you can't win with that empowerment (UIL) behind you, the coach should be terminated. How in the heck could boasting of a state crown using that ploy impress anyone except those who do the same?

So given the recruitment scandals that plagued mojo in the past, there was nothing magic about their state crowns of the past, the very distant past?

[mojotrain]

So given the recruitment scandals that plagued mojo in the past, there was nothing magic about their state crowns of the past, the very distant past?

Can you tell me what you know about those recruitment scandals? As I remember one of Permian's best teams ever was kicked out of the state playoffs for taking in a third string offensive guard from OHS. Only a goober pea would think Permian would risk losing a playoff berth for the sake of a 3rd string guard.

Have you dragged your disdain for Permian over to this board also? Scandals, those rumored and those proven as true pop up in every city, don't they? .(trap question)