Too many Classifications/Divisions

[Super B]

I wrote this as a response to a conversion between Mojotrain and Farmer in the DynastyX3 thread, but decided not to post it there, so as that conversation doesn't get off track. Besides, this deserves to be its own discussion topic.

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I agree there are too many classes/divisions.

In 11 man football there are 10 champions. However, don't get so caught up in names. Division I and Division II. Instead of 2A-DIi, 2A-DI, 3A-DIi, 3A-DI, 4A-DIi, 4A-DI, 5A-DIi, 5A-DI, 6A-DIi & 6A-DI... Think of it as 2A, 3A, 4A, 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, 9A, 10A & 11A. It is essentially the same difference. The distinction made between 2A-DII & 2A-DI is irrelevant. The fact is on the lower levels 2A-4A, Divsions I & II have separate districts. So IN FOOTBALL there ARE eight classifications right now, whether that designate them all as such or not.

Now in 5A and 6A, there is a problem since teams are not predesignated as DI or DII to begin with. Still, I don't know that I would consider the playoffs watered down. There is a reason the UIL decided to split the playoffs into divisions in the first place. After all, the last three seasons the largest school (2nd largest in 2012) won the 6A-DI title. I just think they got a bit carried away.

[Farmer]

We know you wouldn't consider the playoffs watered down because your team has won 3 state championships in years it was never the best team in 5A.

Any way you boil it, it is a watered down system. Even the example you provided above us an assinying statement because it has reduced the districts fr 32 to 16 and 4 teams per district still qualify for the playoffs. Anytime you can have a 1-9 team qualify for the playoffs then it's a watered down system. To try and state other wise is just ludicrous

[Eagle2]

FWIW: A comparison of divisions and state championships. Take a look at other states. Granted its not apples to apples but it is a look at the two power states California and Florida and their number of divisions and champions.

http://www.calpreps.com/2014/national_playoff_brackets.htm

Texas
1A 6 Man I champions: Crowell (TX) [12/13 Crowell (TX) 62 May (TX) 16]
1A 6 Man II champions: Throckmorton (TX) [12/13 Throckmorton (TX) 66 Groom (TX) 20]
2A-I champions: Canadian (TX) [12/18 Canadian (TX) 34 Mason (TX) 7]
2A-II champions: Bremond (TX) [12/18 Bremond (TX) 28 Albany (TX) 21]
3A-I champions: Yoe [C. H.] (Cameron, TX) [12/18 Yoe [C. H.] (Cameron, TX) 70 Mineola (TX) 40]
3A-II champions: Waskom (TX) [12/18 Waskom (TX) 41 Newton (TX) 22]
4A-I champions: Navasota (TX) [12/19 Navasota (TX) 42 Argyle (TX) 35]
4A-II champions: Gilmer (TX) [12/19 Gilmer (TX) 35 West Orange-Stark (Orange, TX) 25]
5A-I champions: Aledo (TX) [12/20 Aledo (TX) 49 Temple (TX) 45]
5A-II champions: Ennis (TX) [12/19 Ennis (TX) 38 Cedar Park (TX) 35]
6A-I champions: Allen (TX) [12/20 Allen (TX) 47 Cypress Ranch (Houston, TX) 16]
6A-II champions: Cedar Hill (TX) [12/20 Cedar Hill (TX) 23 Katy (TX) 20]
Southwest Prep Large champions: Episcopal (Bellaire, TX) [11/07 Episcopal (Bellaire, TX) 44 Kinkaid (Houston, TX) 20]
Southwest Prep Small champions: Episcopal (Dallas, TX) [11/08 Episcopal (Dallas, TX) 42 Casady (Oklahoma City, OK) 14]
TAIAO I champions: Tyler HEAT (Tyler, TX) [11/29 Tyler HEAT (Tyler, TX) 54 FEAST HomeSchool (San Antonio, TX) 50]
TAIAO II champions: Bastrop Tribe Consolidated (Bastrop, TX) [11/29 Bastrop Tribe Consolidated (Bastrop, TX) 38 NYOS Charter (Austin, TX) 26]
TAPPS 6 Man I champions: Geneva (Boerne, TX) [12/05 Geneva (Boerne, TX) 59 Harvest Christian Academy (Watauga, TX) 14]
TAPPS 6 Man II champions: Castle Hills First Baptist (San Antonio, TX) [12/06 Castle Hills First Baptist (San Antonio, TX) 80 Live Oak Classical (Waco, TX) 46]
TAPPS 6 Man III champions: Heritage Christian (Fredericksburg, TX) [12/06 Heritage Christian (Fredericksburg, TX) 46 Trinity School of Texas (Longview, TX) 16]
TAPPS I champions: Bishop Dunne (Dallas, TX) [12/05 Bishop Dunne (Dallas, TX) 41 Prestonwood Christian (Plano, TX) 10]
TAPPS II champions: Parish Episcopal (Dallas, TX) [12/06 Parish Episcopal (Dallas, TX) 56 Dallas Christian (Mesquite, TX) 14]
TAPPS III champions: Trinity Christian (Cedar Hill, TX) [12/06 Trinity Christian (Cedar Hill, TX) 54 Bay Area Christian (League City, TX) 18]
TCAF I champions: Wylie Prep Academy (Wylie, TX) [11/22 Wylie Prep Academy (Wylie, TX) 86 Nazarene Christian Academy (Crowley, TX) 62]
TCAF II champions: Azle Christian (Azle, TX) [11/21 Azle Christian (Azle, TX) 114 Cornerstone Christian Academy (Granbury, TX) 64]
TCAL 11 Man champions: Prime Prep (Dallas, TX) [11/29 Prime Prep (Dallas, TX) 66 Tomball Christian HomeSchool (Tomball, TX) 2]
TCAL 6 Man I champions: Allen Academy (Bryan, TX) [11/29 Allen Academy (Bryan, TX) 62 Phoenix Charter (Greenville, TX) 8]
TCAL 6 Man II champions: Stephenville FAITH (Stephenville, TX) [11/29 Stephenville FAITH (Stephenville, TX) 38 Fort Bend Chargers HomeSchool (Rosenberg, TX) 29]
source: calpreps.com

[Super B]

We know you wouldn't consider the playoffs watered down because your team has won 3 state championships in years it was never the best team in 5A.

Any way you boil it, it is a watered down system. Even the example you provided above us an assinying statement because it has reduced the districts fr 32 to 16 and 4 teams per district still qualify for the playoffs. Anytime you can have a 1-9 team qualify for the playoffs then it's a watered down system. To try and state other wise is just ludicrous

This thread is not about the playoffs being watered down. It is about how many Classes/Divisions there should be. What is the right number? How many teams make the playoffs is a different discussion. Yes, there are way too many playoff teams. We agree on that.

[Eagle2]

Can you not disagree in a more polite manner?

This thread is not about the playoffs being watered down. It is about how many Classes/Divisions there should be. What is the right number? How many teams make the playoffs is a different discussion. Yes, there are way too many playoff teams. We agree on that.

Is it not possible to go back to the old days where there was only one champion per division? Or is it because of the larger enrollment numbers or not enough days to play out? Would be interesting to see how the school in small numbers would compete against the larger numbers and win a championship? Just seems like football (only) has two champions per division and all other sports just have the one champion.What say ye?

[Super B]

The playoffs technically are watered down, if you mean because so many teams make the playoffs. However those below .500 teams get booted after the first round anyway, so they are irrelevant. What waters down the champions is having too many champions. That why the number of overall divisions is what is the important discussion here.

[svhorns]

I honestly think we need one more classification.

[svhorns]

The Allen classification. They can diddle with themselves until they feel like 6,000 kids and growing is too much.

[Eagle2]

The playoffs technically are watered down, if you mean because so many teams make the playoffs. However those below .500 teams get booted after the first round anyway, so they are irrelevant. What waters down the champions is having too many champions. That why the number of overall divisions is what is the important discussion here.

Is it possible to keep the divisions, and have D1 play D2 for just one overall division champ?

[Eagle2]

The Allen classification. They can diddle with themselves until they feel like 6,000 kids and growing is too much.

How many schools in the state would be in the 5k+ category?

[BevoBo]

Is it possible to keep the divisions, and have D1 play D2 for just one overall division champ?

Sounds reasonable to me. Kinda like NFC champions vs, AFC champions for the Super Bowl. Your still champions of your league/division, but a overall champion for the whole shabang is crowned.

[Eagle2]

Sounds reasonable to me. Kinda like NFC champions vs, AFC champions for the Super Bowl. Your still champions of your league/division, but a overall champion for the whole shabang is crowned.

Yea kinda what I was thinking. Along with a first round bye and a true home playoff game of some sort?

[BevoBo]

The Allen classification. They can diddle with themselves until they feel like 6,000 kids and growing is too much.

UIL or State or whoever governs this should put a cap on state run schools. D1 and D2 were put in place to equalize enrollment matchups in playoffs and now you can easily have D1 Allen going against another team with less than half of their enrollment which defeats the purpose of split divisions. A cap would force AISD to rezone the district or build another school and keep par without this double enrolment advantage.

[Eagle2]

UIL or State or whoever governs this should put a cap on state run schools. D1 and D2 were put in place to equalize enrollment matchups in playoffs and now you can easily have D1 Allen going against another team with less than half of their enrollment which defeats the purpose of split divisions. A cap would force AISD to rezone the district or build another school and keep par without this double enrolment advantage.

Definitely a state cap would force cities or schools to rezone or build. As it stands now (one) cities/schools can hold out for as long as they can but eventually will have no choice but to expand. Frisco not too long ago was just a one school town now it has ten schools and growing with more. Midlothian now has its second school, Mansfield has five schools and growing. These are just in the DFW area. I'm sure there are others down south like Pflugerville, Austin, Round Rock area and others in GHA that are in similar situation. Make it a state mandate.

[mojotrain]

The Allen classification. They can diddle with themselves until they feel like 6,000 kids and growing is too much.

You have something here. IMO when you have more than 5000 students and don't win the championship every year there is a coaching problem. With those numbers you should be too big to fail. But the UIL has no business in dictating the size of a school, nor does the State. That's up to the tax payers in that city. The UIL may or may not be turning a blind eye towards perceived recruiting but are allowing other practices that are leading us towards no boundary's and pay for play. Halting that march now is a bridge to far. Booster clubs had better be getting ready to buy their share.

The UIL has made it possible for a two win team to throw up a sign over their practice field claiming a co- district championship. That IMO is a reward for 20% success. That's the lowering of standards and that is cold water in what was a perfect cup of black coffee. But we have more, right? The UIL didn't invent the participation trophy they just follow Washington.

Yes we do have too many divisions.

[MGoBlue]

I don't have a problem with D1 and D2 champs. I have a problem with the way teams are selected for D1 and D2. There is no reason for a school like Katy to be D2 because they play in a large district. Seed the schools by total enrollment, not district enrollment.

[mojotrain]

I don't have a problem with D1 and D2 champs. I have a problem with the way teams are selected for D1 and D2. There is no reason for a school like Katy to be D2 because they play in a large district. Seed the schools by total enrollment, not district enrollment.

That doesn't sound just right.

[Super B]

How many schools in the state would be in the 5k+ category?

Very few. Four.

[Super B]

Having DI play DII is not the answer. Bevo is right, that just defeats the purpose of having Divisions in the first place.

[Super B]

You have something here. IMO when you have more than 5000 students and don't win the championship every year there is a coaching problem. With those numbers you should be too big to fail. But the UIL has no business in dictating the size of a school, nor does the State. That's up to the tax payers in that city. The UIL may or may not be turning a blind eye towards perceived recruiting but are allowing other practices that are leading us towards no boundary's and pay for play. Halting that march now is a bridge to far. Booster clubs had better be getting ready to buy their share.

The UIL has made it possible for a two win team to throw up a sign over their practice field claiming a co- district championship. That IMO is a reward for 20% success. That's the lowering of standards and that is cold water in what was a perfect cup of black coffee. But we have more, right? The UIL didn't invent the participation trophy they just follow Washington.

Yes we do have too many divisions.

Bingo. Not the UIL's place to dictate the size of a HS. The state could however, though I would be against that.

The UIL can however put certain rules in place to disincentivize a school district having Mega school Varsity teams. Creating a separate Mega school division would be one idea. 4,000+. There are right now four 5K+ schools, Allen and the three Plano schools, and six 4K-5K schools. So that is ten total. Say any teams over 4K that make the playoffs, go into that Division. Last season the over 4K playoff teams would have been Allen, Plano West, Skyline, The Woodlands, North Shore, Deer Park and United.They could find some way of dealing with the constant changing of the number of playoff teams, seed them, determine a champ. Four rounds max, but could be less. Make all games played at the higher seeds home stadium. Do not televise the title game. Make the trophy a small cheap plastic football or something.

I actually agree with SVH about needing a sixth classification. If I had my way, the top three classes would be single division with two playoff teams each. 5A, 6A and 7A. I haven't checked in a while, but 7A would probably have the lower cutoff number at around 2,400 or so, assuming you are more or less dividing the total number of schools by six to come up with a close to equal number of schools in each classification.

I have one more crazy idea I'll save for later.

[mojotrain]

Bingo. Not the UIL's place to dictate the size of a HS. The state could however, though I would be against that.

The UIL can however put certain rules in place to disincentivize a school district having Mega school Varsity teams. Creating a separate Mega school division would be one idea. 4,000+. There are right now four 5K+ schools, Allen and the three Plano schools, and six 4K-5K schools. So that is ten total. Say any teams over 4K that make the playoffs, go into that Division. Last season the over 4K playoff teams would have been Allen, Plano West, Skyline, The Woodlands, North Shore, Deer Park and United.They could find some way of dealing with the constant changing of the number of playoff teams, seed them, determine a champ. Four rounds max, but could be less. Make all games played at the higher seeds home stadium. Do not televise the title game. Make the trophy a small cheap plastic football or something.

I actually agree with SVH about needing a sixth classification. If I had my way, the top three classes would be single division with two playoff teams each. 5A, 6A and 7A. I haven't checked in a while, but 7A would probably have the lower cutoff number at around 2,400 or so, assuming you are more or less dividing the total number of schools by six to come up with a close to equal number of schools in each classification.

I have one more crazy idea I'll save for later.

The mega schools, the Privates and those with open borders, lump them together in one class. In 1948 there were three championships. A city champion- Arlington Heights. A 2A champion - Waco and the class A champion - Monahans.

[Super B]

The mega schools, the Privates and those with open borders, lump them together in one class. In 1948 there were three championships. A city champion- Arlington Heights. A 2A champion - Waco and the class A champion - Monahans.

This is not 1948.

[mojotrain]

This is not 1948.

Hadn't thought about that.